Meeting Mooji: Part 2
Last year Mooji welcomed Sharon Henshall into his home to drink tea and share his wisdom. The first part of this interview can be found here. As the interview continued, Mooji’s dialogue deepened, pointing to something far beyond words.
Back in March 2012 I had been invited to interview Mooji, a man whom had caught my attention following watching him speak on YouTube. His wisdom had made me stop in my tracks. It was a week before print and so editorial space was tight. I’d managed to include some of the interview and hoped to write up the rest for posting online. Time disappeared and it just never happened. Since then I’ve attended a silent retreat with Mooji, watched countless more YouTube offerings and felt his words resonate in a more profound way. As space became available in this winter issue, I felt compelled to return to that time spent in Mooji’s company. His words, which even if beyond instant comprehension, reach out to the very depths of our soul.
Q. Why do many of us find life so challenging?
Much energy is being wasted because we are in the wrong identification. We seem to be functioning a foot away from our actual place, at a place where we are living in a kind of a mental construction of who we are. That is where our attention has been living – as soon as we recognise that this place itself is phenomenal and is being watched from a deeper place, a truer place. As that begins to really sink in, the whole game of experience and life changes.
Q. Why do we find doing ‘nothing’ harder than doing ‘something’?
We have to drop the notion of doing nothing, because the mind likes these kind of notions. Sometimes we put a lot of energy to try to do nothing, to try and be nothing, but it’s not the ‘nothing’ which is the outcome of an action, it is the ‘nothing’ that is the outcome of a recognition. There is so much affection for our identity and so much fear around what will ‘I’ be beyond my identity. We are so preoccupied with the mental gymnastics about it and sometimes I think it’s fear also, that something within feels that even if I am ego, at least I have kind of learnt the game of playing like this.
I feel there are always a numbers of people who have come to a place of reckoning inside of themselves, brought there by bitter experiences or whatever. Sometimes we don’t know how we have come here. Even a very young person can have such a strong pull for truth. It’s not always the more mature person – we’re seeing more and more young who are making really authentic explorations into the truth. This is very encouraging.
Q. You often say “Can you see the seer?”. What do you mean by this?
Whenever we hear a profound question, we will need a few times of hearing it because we are so conditioned in the way we perceive something new. First come to the place where you recognise that everything that you call your life is only what has appeared in front of you in some way – you have chosen something, identified with something. All these experiences have reported to you and you have acknowledged this is true: I like this, I don’t like that... whatever it may be. You are essential to the life you call existence, but you, who are you, itself? The one who witnesses life?
For those who have the urge to look, something begins to take place because the mind expects to find something tangible. I say the mind is an instrument for measuring and interpreting change and variety. It always has to look for something phenomenal so that it can find a measurement of. At first people may say yes I can see it’s my idea of who I am, that is seeing life. But what is seeing that? And then, oh, yes, you can’t argue with the fact that this is also seen. But by what is it seen? And then you have to stop and take some breaths for a bit, because possibly we have never really allowed this kind of question to happen inside of us. It can even create some nausea or some strange feelings inside of us, but I say keep on asking this question. It gradually comes into focus what you are asking. It is clear that all these things, including the idea I have of who I am, is also perceived. Who is the perceiver, can it be other than the one I call ‘I’?
Before ‘I’ was occupying the role of the person but now ‘I’ has slipped into a more subtle and wider space where even the ‘I-person’ is seen. That which remains, can that also be seen? We have to call on a deep powers within ourself to really to address this question – which I always say I am not in a hurry to have just a verbal or mental or conceptual answer. It’s an opportunity to really introspect and explore. The answer to this question is maybe an experience, a revelation or something. Take a look and find out.
People have to run away into the bush and sit with that. But even to invite this question in, is also a kind of revolution inside our Being – because it is driving your attention into places where perhaps in ordinary life you will not encounter this type of challenge into yourself. The outcome is something which is wordless, but once you begin to taste this, hopefully a deep appetite comes for that which you cannot describe.
Q. People often tell you they taste this experience, but it then disappears and they want to find it again...
It is a little bit like looking in a mirror and imagining the real you is the one in the reflection. The one who is searching, that one is the energy of the Self, plus the identification with the body/mind. That cocktail, that is the seeker. The seeker turns away from the objects of perception where it has been shopping through the senses and interpreting all the messages as being relevant – and looks more towards the source. But all of that, including the one who is seeking, is phenomenal because there is an awareness of the seeking ‘I’. It takes a while to steady... who am ‘I’? The one being seen or the one who is seeing? Gradually that settles down and seems to plunge into the ocean of its own Being. In that moment there is the absence of the seeker, because the finding has discovered itself somehow. And in the absence of the seeker, there’s a kind of completeness.
But what has actually happened is that there is a rope around the waist of the seeker, and the seeker gets pulled back out again into an identity. Its been dipped into the ocean of existence and then something pulls it out – I don’t know if you want to call it karma... destiny... tendencies. This seeker who has been pulled out is not your definitive Being, it is not your essential Being, it is still the idea of who you are. But when it is plunged into itself, in that instant, it knows it is the Self.
When it came out it goes into goes into a state of amnesia about its real self and it starts to remember this as an experience. It’s like we’re living as our projection and it is the projected ‘I’ who is searching for the real self which is our Self – this is the greatest scam in the universe. That consciousness could concoct such an amazing game.
Q. Why is it so many of us can’t grasp this?
I see how the mistake is made and somehow ‘why’ it is being made. It is like there is a reflex inside the seeking consciousness to return to familiar states because it feels grounded – it feels a context of Being. When it’s really known in the heart you are never going to fall for it again, not completely – you can enjoy the game but being awake to the reality that it is all the Self. When you are in the identity of being a person, good will feel good, bad will feel bad, opposites will seem very different and real, and each thing seems to have its own unique existence. Whereas from the place of the ‘real’, all of them are images or forms of the one reality and you’ll know this in your heart, not just the mind.
How you find this out is by seeing that all the things you were looking at were not IT – they amount to clues and distractions. Then in the real place of seeing, it’s almost as if your Being exhales... nobody lets go, but the letting go happens. It is quite something and when the seeing actually settles into itself, I feel that all the Beings in the universe, the unseen ones, are rejoicing, all the cells in your body are rejoicing with this. Maybe its a very poetic way to say something like that, but I know in my case that something feels true in saying this. In that moment you are praising how the magnificent game is just right the way it is – even with those who have not yet seen, there is still something perfect. Our mind is in resistance to it for a while, because in a way it seems we make a choice, that we must try to discover ourself as and through the mind or through the ‘Being-ness’. It takes a time, a wisdom, a grace, to bring that slow cooking to where it is ready to be prasad for God’s mouth. If we try by holding onto identity we will struggle. But once the humility comes to really slow you down, you begin to see in a true and authentic way – you will come to see forces are there to help you, to guide you. They become the midwife to your own rebirth.
Read the first part of the interview on the articles page of our website: www.inspiredtimesmagazine.com. Details about Mooji’s satsangs & retreats can be found at: www.mooji.org
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